6 December 2025
Dr Azzam Tamimi is a British Palestinian academic and political activist. He is currently the Chairman of Al-Hiwar TV Channel and is its Editor in Chief. Dr Tamimi has written several books on Middle Eastern and Islamic politics, including Power-Sharing Islam, Islam and Secularism in the Middle East, Rachid Ghannouchi: A Democrat within Islamism and Hamas: Unwritten Chapters. He was in Kuala Lumpur recently for a series of talk at several institutions and higher academic centres including the one the Islamic Renaissance Front co-hosted with the International Islamic University of Malaysia on the topic: ‘Understanding HAMAS and why that matters’. We decided to grab the opportunity to interview him on the last day before he left the city on issues pertaining the current political situation in Palestine and the seemingly paradoxical support of the Muslim countries for the Palestinian struggle. This interview was conducted by Ahmad Muziru Idham, Research Fellow at the Islamic Renaissance Front on Saturday evening, 30th November 2025 at JW Marriott Hotel, Kuala Lumpur.
Muziru: First of all, I would like welcome you again in Kuala Lumpur, a city of endless possibilities. The last time you were here under our invitation was for the book launch of the Malay translation of your book: ‘Rachid Ghannouchi: A Democrat Within Islamism” which we translated as ‘Rachid Ghannouchi: Seorang Demokrat dalam Wacana Islamisme’. Do you see any remarkable differences in the political atmosphere here now as compared to before?
Azzam Tamimi: Well, that’s a difficult question to answer because, throughout my few days visit to Malaysia, I haven’t had the opportunity to explore the political situation. Of course Malaysia has always been interesting for me. So, I follow somehow a little bit from a distance. I can see that Malaysia is one of the very few Muslim countries where the position vis-à-vis Palestine is still as we wanted to be. Regrettably, many other countries, especially the Arab countries, have been rushing to the Abrahamic accords and to normalize relations with Israel. We see these actions as stabs in the back of the Palestinian people and the betrayal of the ummah. So we just hope that Malaysia will continue to maintain in a clear position of rejection toward Zionism and toward normalization.
Muziru: Okay. So, in relation to the first question, we read your rebuke of the Prime Minister’s answers to an interview with CNN last year on Israel’s right to exist and defend itself. Can you elaborate on the issue of Israel’s right to exist and defend itself?
Azzam Tamimi: I think that cliché has been one that politicians have been uttering thinking that this is the convention. I think if one were to be fair, Israel is a project of aggression. Zionism is a foreign colonial project that came from Europe and invaded our country and occupied it and dispossessed us. The minimum we expect from any Muslim leader is to recognize this fact. So, if you recognize this fact, how can you just justify for Israel a right to defense? Israel has no right to defense.
It is the Palestinians who have the right to defend themselves. Israel is an aggressor. Israel is an alien body that one day will disappear and will have to disappear. I might hear just caution that when we talk about Israel and Zionism, we’re not talking about the Jews. The Jews as followers of Judaism have always been part of the social matrix of our region; of the Muslim world. They are ahl al-kitab; they are the people of the book. We do recognize that the majority of the Jews at the inception of the Zionist project were opposed to Zionism.
And today we see an increasing number of Jews coming out and speaking loudly against Zionism. So that’s a good sign. We are against Zionism which is a racist-supremacist-colonial project. But we are not against the Jews.
Muziru: Okay. So, continuing on the previous question, many intellectuals and civil societies that work on the Palestinian issue raised objection about Blackrock’s involvement with GIP (Global Infrastructure Partners) in managing Malaysia’s airports. Especially because of Blackrock’s extensive involvement with companies closely allied to Israel’s arm industry – Lockheed Martin for example. Blackrock’s CEO Larry Fink, is known to be a staunch supporter of Israel in its massacre of Palestinians. Now, what is your comment about this seemingly paradox of our government in supporting the Palestinian cause on one hand, and its complicity with a company accused of barbaric genocide in Gaza on the other hand?
Azzam Tamimi: Yeah, it is a contradiction in terms, and we need to resolve it somehow. I think Muslim leaders need to be brave enough to resolve this contradiction. Normalization is something that Israel is so keen on especially from Muslims because it gives it legitimacy. It gives its aggression and occupation legitimacy. Therefore boycotting any entity, any company, any product, any academic, any artist that supports colonialism in Palestine in my opinion is a Muslim duty. It all it takes really is for Muslim leaders to say, “Okay this is the red line. We are not going to cross it.” Normalization and collaboration with the enemies of the ummah is a a straight line.
Of course, I personally understand that you definitely cannot work on everything in the world because we are part of this world. But, if you have a choice; if you have an alternative, it becomes incumbent upon us not to deal with the party that is collaborating with Zionism. Of course there are things that you simply don’t have an alternative. Here we apply the rule, ad-dharurat tubihu al-mahdhurat – necessities eliminate prohibitions, or something like that.
So, this is my position and I think not just the Malaysian government has fallen into this. We see some of our good brothers also in other parts of the Muslim world like in Turkey who occasionally fall into this. It is our duty to continue to advise them and to warn them. If you are truly supportive of the Palestinian cause, then you cannot be supportive of Zionism.
Muziru: Some people say that we should distinguish between economic issues and political issues. How would you respond to that?
Azzam Tamimi: The only distinction I make is between what is essential and what is not. The essential is something that I truly need and I have no alternative to. If I am drinking this coffee and this coffee is produced by a company that is collaborating with Zionism, it is my duty to look for another brand. But, if this is the only brand in the world, then bad luck to me. But most things there are alternatives. Boycott has to be in everything. In America and Europe for instance they’re boycotting academics which has really caused pain to the Israelis. The Israelis are horrified at the prospect of any boycott. Boycott is a very powerful weapon and we should never belittling it.
Muziru: So, following that, do you think it was appropriate for the Prime Minister to have a rapturous welcome for Donald Trump – the enabler of the Gaza genocide – recently?
Azzam Tamimi: No, that’s a different thing altogether. I mean in international politics, there are things that you have no choice in. I don’t like Trump myself. But if Trump were to invite me to ask me about the Palestinian cause, I would go and meet him. That’s different. Trump is the head of state in the biggest most powerful country in the world. Malaysia and other countries, they cannot just boycott him or ignore him, even people who have issues with him. That’s international politics. That’s different. It’s for the well-being and the best interest of the state that you keep channels open with other countries.
Muziru: Now, moving to perhaps more provocative questions. As far as I can remember, ever since I was aware of international politics, Palestinians have been massacred mercilessly by the Zionist regime. But October 7, 2023 it was the first time I read about Hamas’ daring attack in the occupied territory where more than 1000 Israelis were killed. However, it was followed by the merciless and indiscriminate massacres of almost 70,000 Palestinian lives now. Do you think this disproportionate war is warranted?
Azzam Tamimi: The Palestinian case is not unique and it’s not the first in history. So many nations before us were invaded; they were occupied, and they had one of two choices: Either you resist and defend yourself or you capitulate and become slaves. We, Muslims cannot be slaves except to Allah SWT. It is the Israelis who initiated aggression. They came from Europe claiming that God gave them a promise to our land; to our homes; claiming to have a license to do to us whatever they deemed necessary in order to impose control. We had no choice. Our grandparents, our parents, and now our generation – we have no choice but to fight back. The Vietnamese did it; the Algerians did it; the South Africans did it. So many nations around the world did it.
The 7th of October was part of a struggle. It’s a higher level in the struggle simply because it wasn’t possible earlier. So there’s really nothing strange about it apart from the surprising way in which it happened. The fact that, the Israelis had no defenses. I mean everybody thought the Israelis were well fortified; they couldn’t be vanquished; they couldn’t be defeated. Then, suddenly this happens to them. So, that’s element of surprise in it.
If you remember – and many people do remember – that Gaza had been under siege since 2007 and had been under occupation since 1967, and the Israelis had been tormenting the Palestinians. They have been persecuting them; dispossessing them; building settlements on their land; destroying their houses. So, what does the world expect? See, they have every right to resist. Every right.
Therefore, the 7th of October was a reaction to an ongoing oppression that regrettably much of the world at the official level tolerated. Shouldn’t have been tolerated. Actually, according to the United Nations – which hasn’t been very friendly to the Palestinians – the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank was illegal. And yet, much of the world dealt with this as if it were a justified and legitimate status quo – which is not. So, this is how I see the 7th of October.
Muziru: We also noticed that the Arab kingdoms were silent about the war that is going on. And a meagre donation to the helpless Palestinians. Why do you think these Arab Kings were indifferent to the plight of the Palestinian?
Azzam Tamimi: Well, I regret to say that many of the Arab leaders are Zionists. They have Muslim names; they have Arab tribes, but their hearts are Zionists; their minds are Zionists. How else can we explain the fact that when Gaza was being bombarded; when the genocide was being perpetrated, some Arab leaders were helping the Israelis to break the boycott that was imposed by so many people against them. So, rather than help the Palestinians, they were contributing to the siege against the Palestinians and helping the Israelis break their own siege. That’s why millions of Arabs don’t have much hope in their governments. These governments don’t represent them. They were not elected. They’re not accountable to them.
I think, the 7th of October may very well ignite another Arab revolution. There’s so much frustration. There’s so much anger and rage that I wouldn’t be surprised that, in the coming weeks or the coming months or probably a few years, at best or at worst there will be a massive explosion across the Arab world to topple these government that are not representative of the masses.
Muziru: The OIC also did not seem to bother in mediating truce, or ‘hudna’ as you mentioned in your book “Hamas: Unwritten Chapter”. Why is that so and what do you think the OIC should act in the current situation?
Azzam Tamimi: The OIC, the Arab League, all these institutions are clubs for the governors; clubs of rulers. They are not clubs of nations. They don’t represent the nations. Therefore, what do you expect? I mean, when Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and the likes are major donors to these institutions and they control what is to be done and what is not to be done. These are useless frameworks. So, one shouldn’t expect much out of them.
Muziru: So, do you see the normalizing of relationship between the Arab nations with Israel as a betrayal to the Palestinian cause?
Azzam Tamimi: Oh, definitely – definitely it’s a betrayal. All forms of normalization, from signing peace treaties to trade exchanges to opening the skies and airspaces for Israeli flights – whatever they do that prolongs the life of Israel – is a betrayal of the ummah; is a betrayal of Allah; is a betrayal of Rasulullah SAW.
Muziru: Tareq Baconi, Hamas and Gaza scholar, argued in his book “Hamas Contained”, that October 7 happened because Hamas leadership decided that, what he called an “Equilibrium of Terror” could no longer be sustained in the situation of blockade and siege. Was this timing determined by Hamas’s own decision or that of its regional allies due to geopolitical considerations, perhaps in order to prevent Saudi normalization with Israel or India Middle East Europe Corridor, which Biden announced in September 2023 in New Delhi as a way to counter China’s BRI?
Azzam Tamimi: Well, people will continue to have different theories as to why Hamas did what it did on the 7th of October. Frankly, nobody has a final answer simply because the people who planned the operation have all nearly perished. They were martyred. They have not left us – at least to the best of my knowledge – anything written about what went on in their minds. So, we can only speculate.
But my explanation is that Hamas is a liberation movement. In the liberation movement, struggling for the freedom of your people – you seize the opportunity and you keep planning yourself. I mean, Hamas has always said it wanted to liberate the whole of Palestine from the river to the sea. Hamas believed that Israel had no right to exist as a Zionist entity. Therefore, it was just a question of time when is the right moment for launching an offensive for waging jihad. And apparently the planners of that operation came to the conclusion it was about time to do it.
Yet I also believe that Hamas did not expect the operation to expand and to become what it became, because the whole idea of this operation, it was supposed to be a mini scale limited operation intended or aimed at taking prisoners; taking captains Israeli soldiers. There were so many Israeli soldiers around Gaza in order to exchange them for Palestinian prisoners because the Palestinian prisoners issue is a very pressing issue. You can hardly find a single Palestinian family that doesn’t have a member who is imprisoned by the Israelis and some are imprisoned for so many lifetimes. You can imagine.
So, the sole purpose in the beginning was to go in, capture a few Israeli soldiers, and then offer to exchange them with Palestinian prisoners. Yet what happened on the day is that Israeli defenses collapsed completely. And the fence came down, the fence that cost billions of dollars. When it came down, thousands of people from Gaza rushed into what they believed to be was their villages; was their towns that were occupied in 1948 and from which their parents and grandparents were removed.
So things got out of hand. They got out of hand to the extent that many of those who were captured. The Israelis who were captured on the day were not captured by Hamas. They were captured by ordinary people. And that explains why so many civilians were taken because Hamas intended only to take people serving in the Israeli army. Then, the Hamas attackers were shocked to see a huge musical festival next door. They didn’t know that this existed in which there were hundreds – if not thousands – of what do they call them, revellers singing and dancing and things. There was chaos and there was mayhem. This explains why that the majority of the Israelis killed were killed by the Israelis themselves. The Israelis, when they woke up from their slumber and realized what was happening to them, they sent their gunship helicopters and they started firing – thinking that those were people coming from Gaza. Actually, they were Israeli young men and women attending the dance festival.
So, you see there are many things about the operation on the 7th of October that were not reckoned and were not taken into consideration. They just happened for reasons that were beyond the ability and the control of the planners.
Muziru: Some people say that because of the 7th October attack by Hamas on Israel, it gives Israel a reason to completely occupy Gaza. What is your view on this argument?
Azzam Tamimi: Yeah. But people who say this don’t realize that Gaza has been under occupation for more than 50 years. What do you call the complete siege imposed on Gaza that the Israelis were controlling? How? If you were living in Gaza – I was living in Gaza – they were controlling how many calories we could eat per day in order that we just remain alive at the bare minimum; how much water we can have; how much medicine and which medicines we are allowed; who is allowed in and who is allowed out – total control. So, Gaza was not the garden of Eden. Gaza was not Lausanne in Switzerland or Montreal in Canada. It was a hell of a land. So, as I explained earlier, the 7th of October was a reaction to an ongoing oppression; severe oppression.
Muziru: So, do you agree with the claim that the Israeli genocide was not the “War on Hamas” but a Demographic war, which will continue even if Hamas decides to disarm or politically disband and disappear both militarily and politically?
Azzam Tamimi: Well, the Israelis have been fighting the Palestinians long before Hamas came to life. Hamas was born in December 1987. Our problem with the Israelis – with the Zionist – goes all the way to the early years of the 20th century. Zionist ideology does not recognize the Palestinians or the Arabs or any other as a full human being. They don’t recognize that you have rights. They don’t recognize that you have dignity. They have been doing this, I mean, how many massacres the Israelis perpetrated since 1947? How was my mother, for instance, and her parents and her siblings driven out of their home in the 1948? Because the Israelis were perpetrating massacres here and there like there are seen and others, and allowing the news to spread that in these massacres they were killing everybody even pregnant women. So that Palestinians are frightened for their lives and they run away. The Israelis – the entire project – is built on this.
So, they don’t just have an issue with Hamas. Look, what they’re doing today? Why are they occupying land in Syria? Why are they attacking Lebanon every day? Why are they attacking Iran, Yemen, even Tunisia? They consider themselves to be supreme. Anybody else doesn’t matter. And because they have the backing of the Americans, and because they have because they have the collaboration of the Arab regimes, they act with impunity – utter impunity – and they don’t care about anything.
Muziru: Donald Trump announced the ban on Muslim Brotherhood and proscribed it as a “terrorist organization”. Will this ban affect other Muslim Brotherhood’s Legacy organizations in the UK and other parts of Europe given the European servitude to Trump’s America?
Azzam Tamimi: Of course. A decision like this can have negative repercussions, because, who is the Muslim Brotherhood? If when Trump announces the designation of the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization or when the French do this, or anybody in Europe, who is the target? The Brotherhood don’t have offices in these countries. They don’t run operations. But it is very likely that any Muslim who believes in the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves might be branded as a Muslim Brotherhood member. So they will go after Muslim institutions. They will go after mosques. This is what the Austrians did at one time. This is what the French have been doing. This is what the Germans sometimes do. So, just any Muslim even if you are just praying five times a day, they might say, “Oh, you’re five praying five times a day because you are a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.”
What is the Muslim Brotherhood? This is the issue. This is the question. I suspect that Trump is doing this as a favour to his Arab allies in Egypt, in Saudi Arabia, in the United Arab Emirates who have been pressing him and others to designate the Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. Because if this happens, they will come to someone like me – running a TV station and say, “Oh, this TV station belongs to the Muslim Brotherhood, so close it down”. “This mosque is run by the Muslim Brotherhood, so close it down.” This is what they’re going to do. It’s going to be a a warfare.
Arab governments tried to restrict our activities in the West because we are critical of them; because we enlighten people about how brutal their regimes are. But they have failed. They couldn’t do it. I will just give you one example. In the month of November 2013 – just a few months after the coup against Dr. Mohamed Morsi in Egypt – the United Arab Emirates delegation came to London to sign 6 billion pound deal with the British government. They were supposed to sign this deal with Prime Minister Cameron. So they sat with him. Before they signed, they said to him, “We won’t sign until you close down Al Hiwar TV, which is run or owned by Azzam Tamimi”. He said to them, “I cannot do this”. They said, “How come you cannot do this? You are the head of state. You are the Prime Minister in this country. You can do whatever you like”. He said, “No, no, no. In this country, a Prime Minister cannot do whatever he likes. There are laws. There are courts. If you have a problem with Al Hiwar, and if they have done something wrong, take them to court”. So they refused to sign. They took the papers, went back and did not return to sign them until he agreed, after one whole year, to do what is known as the revision into the Muslim Brotherhood. That revision was supposed to find out whether the Brotherhood was a terrorist organization or not. They tried to find a reason. Of course the conclusion of the committee that did the investigation is that: No. The Muslim Brotherhood has not been involved in any terrorism, but there are elements within the Brotherhood who have the tendency to be extreme. So, that’s the best they could do.
But now, if Trump does this, and if Trump like previous American administrations, pressures his allies in Europe to do the same, that can of course have adverse effects on the Muslim communities as a whole. This is what they did before when they outlawed the Hamas. The Americans started, and then they got the British to do it – the British who were still members of the European Union and carried the whole thing to the European Union. This is how it works. But look, Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization. So what? It’s not the end of the world.
Muziru: Yet, the Zionists weren’t classified as terrorist organisation, were they?
Azzam Tamimi: It is! Of course, this is the hypocrisy of the world.
Muziru: How much do you think anti-Muslim Brotherhood scholars in the US and Europe – such as Lorenzo Vidino being one of the more outspoken – have affected Trump’s decision to ban Muslim Brotherhood?
Azzam Tamimi: Well, I think his decision is affected by so many things. First of all, he is a strong supporter of Israel and Israel considers the Muslim Brotherhood to be the arch enemy worldwide because Hamas is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood anyway. They were originally the Brotherhood of Palestine. He’s doing this as a favour to al-Sisi, to Bin Salman, to Ben Zayed – MBS and MBZ as they are called, probably under pressure from some elements of the right wing and the Christian-Zionist camp in America. By the way, the strongest supporters of Israel in America are not Jewish Zionists, although they do, but it is Christian-Zionists; Christian Zionism. Zionism originally is a Christian idea, not a Jewish idea.
Muziru: How do you explain the complicity of certain Muslim countries, Turkey for instance, displayed in relation to with Israeli atrocities, despite the fact that Turkey housed Hamas political leaders and engaged in rhetoric and public display of anti-Israel slogans while in all other ways continued to pump oil and sell food to Israel, enabling genocide to continue? This also includes Erdogan friendliness to Trump. How do you explain this phenomenon?
Azzam Tamimi: Yeah, many Muslims around the world are dismayed by this hypocrisy shown by some Muslim leaders. If it is not hypocrisy, it’s weakness really. I think in the case of the Turks, it’s weakness. I know deep down in their hearts, they are with Palestine. But they rule a country that traditionally was a supporter of Zionism. I mean Turkey, after the caliphate since Ataturk came to power, was a a staunch supporter of the Zionist project and continued until Erdogan came to power and started changing this. Or maybe this started earlier when even Erbakan rahimahullah became prime minister at one stage or another. But Turkey is a member of NATO and that’s a shackle. They are shackled by their commitments by their international or global commitments.
I think they don’t have the courage to take a daring stand in this regard. They’re afraid of conspiracies that can be hatched against them, and there are all sorts of attempts to undermine them. I don’t deny that. There was the attempt in the coup attempt in 2016, I think – July 2016. This is the economic warfare and the financial problems they have with their currency and all of this. Despite all of this, by the way, the Israelis consider them to be an enemy. They treat them as an enemy. They hate – the Israelis hate – Erdogan for merely vocally supporting Palestine.
So, all we can hope really for is that for our brothers in Turkey and our brothers in Malaysia and our brothers elsewhere in the Muslim world to have the courage to come out public publicly. Not just expressing sympathy with the Palestinians, but also taking action. And Turkey in particular, because Turkey is very close to the conflict. And Turkey, as you mentioned earlier, has been the channel for delivering natural gas from Azerbaijan to Israel and also exporting food products and things. This is very bad. Not only that, Turkey for a while did not do anything regarding the hundreds of Jewish-Turks who went and served in the Israeli army, killing our brothers and sisters in Gaza. They should have moved earlier and prevented this or and even prosecuted those who did so because, according to the ICJ and according to all other international instruments, these are crimes against humanity and war crimes. So this is the situation. Let’s hope they do change their policies.
Muziru: Two Muslim countries, Malaysia and Turkey seem to have coordinated and supported the Sumud Flotilla activities. Nowhere was it more publicized in Malaysia. Some commentators argued that this was a PR manoeuvring to placate the public opinion while no substantial actions were taken by either country to resist Israeli genocide?
Azzam Tamimi: Look, for us Muslims, the rule is that, if people do good, we say thank you for doing good. If they do bad, we criticize them and we say you shouldn’t have done that bad. So, we have to be fair. I cannot claim to know their intentions and judge their intentions. If they’re doing something good, I’m thankful to them and ask Allah to reward them and I ask them for more of this rather than try to downgrade it or belittle it.
Muziru: Why do you think HTS (Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham) former leader and now president of Syria, Ahmad Sharaa’s regime banned Palestinian activism and resistance in Damascus and solidarity with Gaza and Palestinians generally, when Hamas initially sided with the Syrian rebellion against the former Baathist regime. Is this not a betrayal of Palestinian cause?
Azzam Tamimi: That’s not the way I see it. Despite the fact that I have some reservations about some of the things that Ahmad Sharaa and his government are doing, I am still inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and to express understanding that they are in a very difficult position. They have inherited a massively destroyed country; a nation that has been banished, banished from homes and their priority is to rebuild the country. They are not in a position really to start a war against Israel. They cannot. They don’t have the means. I cannot expect from people what they don’t have. But I at least expect from them not to normalize relations with Israel. And I have been worried and concerned about a series of meetings that happened between the foreign minister and Israelis. These are were public meetings, not even secret ones. I am a bit worried about the very close association between Ahmad Sharaa and Trump. I’m very worried about involvement of Saudi Arabia.
All I can hope for is that these are all temporary manoeuvres to help Syria cancel the sanctions and come out of isolation and start the process of reconstruction. There are people who are more suspicious. But as I said to you, despite my concerns and my reservations, I’m still inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Muziru: Would you then agree to the suggestion that he was groomed by the CIA to defuse the resistance against the Zionist regime especially when he sat down with David Petraeus, the General who arrested him and later became the Director of CIA in New York’s Concordia Annual Summit recently?
Azzam Tamimi: There are people who claim this. I don’t have evidence. I cannot. I don’t have evidence that he was actually groomed by the CIA. Naturally, when he was in England and they had a government there, they had very strong relations with the Turks, understandably, and they seem to have had some communications with the Europeans and the Americans. Because their priority was regaining the country and bringing their people back. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just a question of whether a certain price is expected of them. There are people who are sceptical, but I have no evidence. I cannot, I cannot talk about things I have no evidence of.
Muziru: Why do you think major Sunni Muslim countries look suspiciously on the Islamic Republic in Iran and Shi’a Islam when Iran clearly demonstrated that it is the only credible Muslim state which dared to confront Israel by serious military force. Will this Iranian action change the anti-Shi’a narrative still prevalent in many Sunni Muslim countries and communities, including Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia?
Azzam Tamimi: This is a very big topic. I doubted that we can sufficiently address it in one answer. Because this really goes back to initially to the Arab response to the Iranian revolution in the first place. I was a young student at the time 1979 when Khomeini led the change in his country and regrettably the Arab governments in the region, the neighbourhood and beyond the neighbourhood. We were very worried that the Iranian revolution might be imitated; might become a model to be followed by people yearning for change across the region. So what they did is that they revived Shi’a-Sunni disputes which were historical. And not only that, they incited Saddam Hussein to wage war on Iran. The Americans and Europeans joined in. They supplied him with chemical weapons; with all sorts of weapons. The Kuwaitis and the Saudis provided him with funding. We had a whole decade war of devastation between two Muslim neighbouring countries. And of course, the propaganda machines were working day and night – 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year describing what was going on as a Sunni-Shi’a conflict.
It wasn’t – it was really a purely political conflict justified in sectarian terms. Now from the Iranian side, there were Shi’ite groups who were truly extremists and who thought that the Iranian revolution was an opportunity for them to accomplish the dream they have been waiting for in the form of waiting for the Messiah. Then, there were Shi’a groups in some of the Arab countries, especially in the Gulf, who were initially encouraged by the Iranian change and then probably had some links in various degrees. So you see there are so many factors involved in this.
But, let it be known that when it comes to Israel, Iranian-Israeli hostility is not fake. That’s true. The Iranians know that Zionism is the enemy of the ummah. They are part of the ummah. The Israelis are constantly horrified by any attempt by the Iranians to develop or to empower other groups in the region. Then came the Arab Spring, and the Arab Spring augmented the suspicions and the scepticism and also the hostility between Shi’ites and Sunnis. Of course prior to that, must mention the toppling of the Saddam regime in Iraq. The Americans toppled Saddam Hussein claiming he was a Sunni leader. They had aligned themselves with Shi’a groups who were loyal to Iran. So, although the Americans did the job, it was the Iranians who inherited the influence in Iraq. So that increased the tensions.
But, then came the Arab Spring. In the Arab Spring, the Iranians sided by the Syrian regime which in my opinion was a very selfish and a very bad decision. They paid the price for it afterwards because the Iranians were seen by still many masses across the Arab world as supporters of freedom and of Palestine etc. But siding with the Syrian regime against the people of Syria damaged their reputation enormously and damaged the reputation of Hezbollah also, because Hezbollah was a liberation movement against Israel and was highly respectable and loved across the region. But, when it became a tool of repression in Syria, much of that was lost. We saw Hezbollah afterwards pay the price – pay a heavy price – because it was infiltrated. One of the reasons for that profound infiltration was the role in Syria. So, it’s a complex issue actually and it continues to have ramifications.
Muziru: What is the importance of Israel to the United States that, even when Israel violates the ceasefire expected by the US – and despite Trump’s frustration with Israel – they remain confident that the US will continue to support them?
Azzam Tamimi: I personally believe that Israel has no value for the United States of America. This is a myth created by the Zionists in order to justify pouring billions of dollars every year into Israel. Israel is supported by the American administrations for two reasons. One is ideological because America is today the global headquarters of Christian Zionism. And the second is political because the Zionist lobby – which is a combination of both Christian Zionism and Jewish Zionism – had over the years developed enormous influence in the political process in America. So, if you as Trump himself admitted only recently, if you wanted to be in politics in America, you had to appease the Zionist lobby – AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee).
Now this is changing. Now anybody who is associated with Israel and with AIPAC may not have good prospects in politics. We saw what happened to Zohran Mamdani. Zohran Mamdani who went against the Zionist lobby won massively. Probably this might be followed by other similar examples. So, it is usually claimed that Israel is the America’s biggest military base in the world. I think militarily, and from the intelligence point of view as well as economically, the Arabs benefited America a lot more than Israel benefited America. Look where the American bases are. They are in Saudi Arabia; in Qatar; in the UAE; in Egypt; in Jordan; and Djibouti where in now in Algeria even in so many in Morocco. Economically, it’s the Arab oil, not Israeli oil. They don’t have oil.
So, I don’t believe this myth that Israel is essential for American economy or American security. To the contrary, Israel cost American taxpayers billions of dollars for nothing. And it’s only likely to increase the hatred around the world for America. 9/11. If 9/11 was truly perpetrated by Arabs, they did it as is claimed because of what America was doing to the Muslims. And America was doing this to the Muslims because of Israel; because they were claiming that this they were protecting Israel and reinforcing it. So, the Americans need to wake up. Israel is a burden. Israel is not an asset for them.
Muziru: But I don’t think any president will ever dare to remove Israel from their policy.
Azzam Tamimi: Well, the time may come. I think…now we have some information being dug out from the hidden records, that J.F. Kennedy was assassinated by the Mossad because he wanted to curtail the Israeli nuclear program. People are talking about it now in America a lot because it has been an enigma; it has been some sort of a of a mystery. Why he was killed and who killed him? Now they’re saying, “Oh, we have evidence. That it was the Mossad because he invited or spoke to Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, and said to him, ‘America must have control over what you are doing in the nuclear realm.’ And the Israelis didn’t want anybody to control their program, so they got rid of him.
So, it is not at all unlikely that the near future will witness a change in the American position. If the New Yorkers this time elected Zohran Mamdani to be the mayor of New York, they might elect him or elect someone like him to be the next president of the United States of America.
Muziru: So, do you trust Zohran Mamdani to be someone who can genuinely defend and uphold the interests of Muslims?
Azzam Tamimi: I judge him on what he says, and this man must be very brave. He challenged the status quo. He challenged convention. He challenged the Zionists to the extent that even Trump is impressed by him. You saw the meeting between them? Very impressive.
Muziru: My final question to you is regarding this issue of a Palestinian state. Dr Ilan Pappé, an Israeli historian and political scientist, during his talk at IRF’s activity centre a couple of years ago suggested for a one-state solution for the Palestinian problem whereby both Israelis and Palestinians live alongside each other in one country ruled by a democratic government. I would like to know what is your suggestion for the solution: One-state, Two-state or whatever you deemed is practical and feasible?
Azzam Tamimi: My position on this issue is that the objective now is to liberate Palestine from Zionism. Once Zionism is no more, those who live in the land decide what sort of political structure or administration they wish to have. Any talk about two state or one state now is of no value. A one state situation might be the eventual outcome of the liberation of Palestine. Yet, when the liberation occurs who knows how the world will look like. Palestine was never a state at any time in its history. It was always a province of a much bigger entity or power. When it is liberated it may return to what it used to be. The entire levant, and even beyond, may will reunite again or form some sort of a federal union. I always like to talk about the United States of the Middle East. Or at least the United States of West Asia.
Muziru: Thank you for your time, Dr Azzam Tamimi. I hope your stay here has been very meaningful and enjoyable for you. Wassalamu‘alaikum warahmatuallāh!
